NeoChrom/GPU2D registers documentation

[robvos]

Will this peripheral ever be documented in detail? i.e. registers, interrupts, etc.

Or even a lightweight/low level library would be acceptable.

We may choose STM32U5 for a product but not if we are forced to use TouchGFX for good performance.

 

[robvos]

I suppose no reply means "No"? That's fine, but an official response would be appreciated.

[GaetanGodart]

Hello @robvos ,

The NeoChrom GPU documentation will not be made public.
ST partners providing GUI libs supporting STM32 with NeoChrom GPU have access and have already, or are working on, utilizing NeoChrom GPU capabilities to its full extend.

Hope this helps. :smiling_face_with_smiling_eyes:

[mrrobot]

Hi Gaetan,

Some follow-up questions:

• Why is this documentation being withheld from us?
• Who are these partners?
• When will we have access to their libraries that use the full extents of NeoChrom abilities?

[TDJ]

@mrrobot Best to my knowledge, ST believes that GPU2D is too complex for you (and myself) to handle.
But the true may be that they are still working on docs or MPUs with GPU2D were released prematurely or ST just wanted to give TouchGFX team a head start - who knows for certain? These days not telling customers the truth is a standard business practice.

[DmitryR]

Hi robvos,

 

I just want to support you, as I have to complete a relatively complex HMI recently. I was considering TouchGFX, but have found it too rudimental in compare to other libraries. I have instead planned to add a support for NeoChrom to the library I have chosen, but now I will probably need to choose other MCU for HMI.

 

Regards,

Dmitry

 

[Jack3]

I really was waiting for ST's GPU2D announcement for a new line of products we are preparing for.

So we purchased the STM32U5G9J-DK2 to see how useful the GPU2D could be for our newest products (maritime industry). There is a great demo that shows improved performance while offloading the MCU.
Currently, we use a lot of STM32s in designs because I really liked these MCU's.
As a lead engineer I started to use them in al new projects, replacing all PIC-base products.

While the GPU2D can't be documented in the reference manual, as it is an IP of vendor Think Silicon, the great thing is ST can provide us with the NeoChromSDK, so we can still use the GPU2D, making STM32 a great choice for GUI applications, even if you don't use TouchGFX!

 

[TDJ]

@Jack3 It is OK for any company to release a product with or without documentation as long as transparency is maintained and customers are not being misled. I am afraid GPU2D unprecedented case is not an example of such good business practice. Why? An official statement on this subject is nowhere available. It takes lots of search to learn about this new disappointing ST marketing strategy.

[TDJ]

@GaetanGodart', Your response above states that ST's partners already "are working on utilizing NeoChrom GPU capabilities to its full extend". Who are those partners? We do not know, but clearly it is no longer us - mere engineers who once trusted ST Microelectronics. Of course, you have reasons to be happy. Your team's job is guaranteed for years to come but the ending statement "Hope this helps :)" in this thread context I perceive as a bit cynical. Consider that we are very upset here although I do recognize that this decision may be dictated by ST's effort to motivate those who are able to quickly produce high quality software packages and adequate support rather than desire to gain additional profit from license sale and partnership fees.

[DmitryR]

Hi TDJ,

 

I have just attended the ST´s webinar concerning HMI on the newest MCU´s, and I can say that it is a pure shame. 50% time devoted to reading presentations, 50% time devoted to approve the obvious fact that hardware acceleration works really better that CPU. No study how to build effective HMI with TouchGFX, just loading the predefined example project to U5x9 and H7 boards and comparing results. I see that TouchGFX team has really nothing to promise.

 

And to your question "who are those partners" is the answer: Microsoft with their Azure GUIX is NOT this partner.

 

Regards,

Dmitry

[TDJ]

@DmitryR Unfortunately, this is what typically happens when engineering company starts to be dominated by marketing and their clever practices. For some time such strategy seems to work, sales numbers look good, engineering support costs can be reduced, top managers get promotions and bonuses so they keep pretending everything is great. And then one day it begins to collapse. It is sad to see signs ST is heading this direction.

[mrrobot]

Based on all the nema_XXX calls & symbols inside the TouchGFX HAL, it looks like this GPU might be from Think SIlicon: https://www.think-silicon.com/nema-gfx-api

It looks like the NemaGFX API matches the headers in what gets put in Middlewares/ST/touchgfx_components/gpu2d/NemaGFX .  I'm having touble finding documentation for the Nema VG extensions, though.

[JMYGI]

Dear Community
We are preparing to share basic documentation, code examples and required NemaGFX libs through NeoChromSDK. The NeoChromSDK comes in versions dedicated to one STM32 series (STM32U5x9, STM32H7R/S) supporting code examples to dedicated STM32 discovery kits.

Main target user of NeoChromSDK is GUI expert wanting to utilize NeoChrom(VG) GPU features, not using TouchGFX or other GUI tools already prepared to utilize the features of NeoChrom GPU.

We are working on a solution to share it through ST.com on a demand approach as it requires expert-level, and support on NeoChrom GPU is not mass market available. The documentation is limited to what is available from the IP vendor Think Silicon. Please note, I recommend using TouchGFX or other tools using NeoChrom GPU if you need dedicated support for NeoChrom features, this is available through the GUI tool vendor, so ST for TouchGFX.

As a temporary solution, you can already contact me on [e-mail] to request access to NeoChromSDK.

Regards
Jørgen Mygind
STM32 Graphics Business Manager

[DmitryR]

Hello Jørgen,

 

Thank you very much. I have read the AN5632 and it states that NemaGFX/NemaVG libraries are still precompiled rather than in source code. Because of this your solution will not still be usable for most industrial applications. Please understand that it is not our fancy but in most cases it is simply required to have a source code of the whole application. Otherwise the application appears to be dependent from your support which is in case of large quantity productions is just too risky.

 

Regards,

Dmitry

[JMYGI]

Hello DmitryR - I get your point. This limitation is linked to the delivery of Think Silicon, which I do not expect I can change. Though I will mention your strong request to Think Silicon now, If any positive feedback I will share 

[TDJ]

@DmitryR I just ordered evaluation board from another, well-known Dutch vendor with Cortex-M33 MPU using well-documented VGLite GPU2D (LVGL supported). It has much more SRAM than STM32U5G9 and faster clock. I used to be ST-centric engineer but not anymore. Enough is enough

[JMYGI]

I am sorry to hear TDJ - you are most welcome to contact me directly on [e-mail] for further sharing and possible alignments - thank you 

[TDJ]

@JMYGI The problem, as I see it, is much wider. Recent years ST, instead of supporting community open-source software, selects/builds proprietary closed-source technologies which lock customers into ST's solutions like ThreadX, TouchGFX, and now NemaGFX. It is a bright red flag. Even from mcuboot ST had to create own customized SBSFU solution.

Ofc, ST is for-profit company and it has to select the best strategy primarily to please the stakeholders, rather than engineers, but when such strategies are too aggressive clients simply go somewhere else. Especially because the whole software industry is more mature than it was 20yrs ago while, in my opinion, ST makes similar mistakes Microsoft made during Steve Ballmer era.

[yakabmarci]

Did anyone requested the NeoChromeSDK and got it? It was promised that this will be shared via st.com, but in the meantime as a temporary solution this can be requested via mail ( @JMYGI)

I'm still waiting for it, i'm not sure what will it contain. How 'big' you have to be, to actually get it?

I understand that this is 3rd party ip and there are issues what can be shared, but how can developers use it, if there is no documentation on it.

Something like this it would be nice: this is think silicon nema pico xl gpu, it is configured in the following way, give some performance metrics, API, examples, documentation and so on.

 

What would be even nicer is source code for the library, more description of the HW, shader core architecture and its ISA, so developers can write their own shaders (limited as it is, it is still programable and would be useful)

What is there to gain to keep all this secret? It is no advantage that we have all these nice features, but no possibility to use it. Developers will just use a different MCU. ST MCUs don't exist in a void, there are alternatives, competitors.

[TDJ]

@yakabmarci The best resource I know is LVGL which since 3 weeks ago, thanks to dedicated effort of Liam Howatt, has supposedly working code supporting GPU2D. I am just trying to make it work, it is dev code on master branch, no release yet. This is the only reason why I still did not abandon all the hope.
See: lvgl/src/draw/nema_gfx at master · lvgl/lvgl
But I agree, ST's approach to this matter and engineer support in general is simply very upsetting.
@JMYGI may not be with the company anymore. It almost seems like they try to drastically reduce staff costs before some merger.

[yakabmarci]

i have the STM32H7S78-DK on order, should arrive next week, once i have it i plan to make a bunch of examples, just nemagfx stuff, no touchgfx or lvgl or anyhting else. (with or without ST's help :) ) I already had a look at lvgl, it is a good starting point. The purpose is to evaluate nemagfx performance and usability, suitability for a particular project